Posts by refiners fire

54

Another New Rule-----You Can't Record Prayers at the District Convention

by minimus in

jw
friends

my mother told me that she got a video from a sister that already went to the convention.

the entire program was recorded except for the prayers.

the sister said the society says we have to shut off the recording if the prayer is being given.

refiners fire

A thought. The prayers are the only thing that are relatively spontaneous and individual.The only thing not completely planned and pre directed by the org.

26

Why I think the jw's are a cult and not a religion

by Ron1968 in

fortunately, it is not the case with me but this deal about parents not talking to their children who have been disfellowshipped is horrid.

it is bad enough for those who have been disfellowshipped, but to have their own family turn on them?

as such, i think the jw's are a cult as they separate families.

Ive been out of the church a long time, and to tell the truth the blood issue and the technicalities associated with it has never been something thats interested me overmuch. So I was curious as to what you thought. For sure your thinking seems reasonable to me.

Ive concocted my own personal interpretations regarding what constitutes a cult. I guess opinions about cults are as numerous as there are "experts" on the subject.

13

Old WatchTower Magazines

by ClassAvenger in

i was wondering where i can get some watchtower magazines, the really old ones where they teach about all those prophecies and stuff.

i was thinking of collecting a few to show them to my jw friend, but i have heard they are hard to find.

i have also heard about some magazines being in cd-roms, but i don't think a jw would accept that, i think they would want harder evidence.

refiners fire

Im sure there must be a Russelite site that at least has the WTs up till December 1916. I understand what you say about having hard copy. Ive got a lot of stuff here. If you are really pinched and cant find anything I'll mail you some gear. However Id be surprised if there isnt a Berean Bible Centre within striking distance of where you live. Let me know.

39

Why cults hide their old publications.

by refiners fire in

here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

this example is from 7th day adventism, but i assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading.

still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech i will be quoting from before proceeding.

refiners fire

Buster. I dont think Russell concieved much of anything originbal in his movement. He was enthusiastic about Parallels, thats because the Adventists Didnt use those. But they used the 6000 years "proof", the 2520 years "proof" and the Jubilee "Proof". Actually the parallels are still in use today. I saw them used as proof of the divine appointment of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. I posted a thread about that here somewheres.

Al F. You are indeed right ( as usual) They were Millerites, not SDAs, though they were Adventists. The SDA movement first published its fully developed doctrine April 1850 in James Whites magazine "Present Truth". (As opposed to Yesterdays former truth or Tomorrows as yet dimly percieved truth)

34

Getting Baptized, did you really want to, or did you feel extreme pressure?

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

i was never baptized, but boy did i feel the pressure ....... what are you waiting for ???

don't you love jehovah ???

(i was in my late teens and brought up in the borg)

refiners fire

KGB. You felt like I woulda felt with some smug holy twit telling me how to run my life. Imagine. Some elder in a church announces that your not allowed to get married. The nerve of the son of a bitch. The nerve of the church! Imagine surrendering your right to decide such a matter for yourself to ANYONE! Next they would command you to get up fixing the roof shingles at midnight in the pouring rain.

Staggering

26

Why I think the jw's are a cult and not a religion

by Ron1968 in

fortunately, it is not the case with me but this deal about parents not talking to their children who have been disfellowshipped is horrid.

it is bad enough for those who have been disfellowshipped, but to have their own family turn on them?

as such, i think the jw's are a cult as they separate families.

refiners fire

Im curious as to why you consider the matter of refusing blood to be a cultic red flag . Ron68 . When youre in the mood to elaborate....

A cult is simply a sealed system which practises an absolute doctrine. Whether the sealed system is a product of the absolute doctrine or not Im uncertain. It may well be. Once you have an absolute truth, well you are morally obliged to propagandize everyone with it to protect them from themselves. Once you Seal the system no balancing influence can countermand the tendancies to paranoia and terrorization.

Its possible that the most complete evil in our world is the product of nothing more than persons who believe they are absolutely right in what they believe and practise and who believe they are doing nothing more than trying to protect others from a percieved evil.

39

Why cults hide their old publications.

by refiners fire in

here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

this example is from 7th day adventism, but i assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading.

still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech i will be quoting from before proceeding.

refiners fire

Craig. Below is a good link to a book by Francis Nichol refuting Canright. Its called "Ellen G White and her critics'. Apparently Canright was a very troublesome apostate type.

http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egwhc/egwhctoc.html

Of course, id be interested in those books you mentioned provided inconvenience isnt caused for you. I'll PM you and make contact brother. Perhaps we could swap some info. Ive got a rather extensive library on cult and religious subjects and may have something youve wanted, but havent obtained.We should PM on the matter.

The adventist church, from what ive observed, is a hotbed of disputes/ splits etc, an ongoing debating society with everyone quoting EG White to back their own agenda. Ive been to church meetings where there were more sev vies outside arguing doctrine than there were inside listening to the program. Perhaps because of the ongoing fragmentation of the adventist movement (perhaps caused by a policy of a degree of free debate) the dubs have learnt from their forefathers and opted to conceal every mistake by sweeping it under the carpet and silencing all dissent.

39

Why cults hide their old publications.

by refiners fire in

here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

this example is from 7th day adventism, but i assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading.

still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech i will be quoting from before proceeding.

refiners fire

Year zero. Christ is born. equals 1844 the beginning of the awakening.

29CE ,Christs revealing as messiah, equals 1874 Christs return as saviour

33CE, The ressurection of Christ parallels to 1878CE the resurrection of the sleeping saints

36CE, The door of salvation opened to Gentiles parallels to 1881 and the "shut door" of salvation.

70CE, End of the Jewish System parallels to 1914 End of the System of things.

Parallel Dispensations of equal time length

Apologies to "some" for not explaining what i was on about.

Plummy. I suppose the thought in the speakers mind at the time concerned the "pre" or "post" millenial "return". Maybe he thought those who favoured a post millenial 'return' were spiritualizers. But those who convert literal expectations into figurative returns are 'spiritualizers' in my book.

39

Why cults hide their old publications.

by refiners fire in

here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

this example is from 7th day adventism, but i assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading.

still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech i will be quoting from before proceeding.

refiners fire

sure is.

1844 1874 1878 1881 1914AD equals 0 29 33 36 70CE

39

Why cults hide their old publications.

by refiners fire in

here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

this example is from 7th day adventism, but i assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading.

still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech i will be quoting from before proceeding.

refiners fire

Here is a classic example of why it is that cultic religions find it necessary to conceal their old publications from the scrutiny of the membership.

This example is from 7 th Day Adventism, but I assure all readers it is a classic and well worth the reading. Still, it is necessary to lay out a little background to the speech I will be quoting from before proceeding.

The 7 th day Adventists had an expectation of Christs return revolving around the end point of 1844. Nothing happened. And so a retrospective understanding that pure worship practises needed to be restored after 1844 came to be. In fact, 1844 came to be understood as a wake up call to the spiritually minded. A last chance to be saved. I have demonstrated before (using Mormonism as an example) that revelations pertaining to ‘restoring’ pure worship practises (lost since apostolic times) follow on inevitably from prophetic failures. The Adventist understanding of post 1844 pure worship revelations revolves around what are called the “3 Angels messages”. These are found in scripture at Revelation 17 and 18. It came to be seen that the First angels cry pertained to William Miller and his 1844 prediction, a wake up call so to speak. The 2nd angel cried out for all Christlike ones to leave Spiritual Babylon and abandon false worship. And the 3 rd Angel was Ellen G White herself and her message to ‘restore’ the pure practise of the Sabbath.

It is pertaining to the “Second Angels message”, that call to “get out of Babylon” and form a separate (pure) church that I will be quoting in this thread.

A reader of Adventist publications will see that the prophecy of the “second angel’ was begun of fulfilment in a sermon preached by one Charles Fitch, an Adventist illuminari, in 1843. The speech was called

“GET OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE.”

And it was the first public call for Adventist believers to exit the churches they attended and form their own sect.

But a reading of the actual speech delivered by Fitch reveals something little known, something rather unusual. Here are some quotes from the speech conveying the ghist of what Fitch actually said:

“What is Babylon? It is Antichrist. What then is Antichrist?… 1 John 4 says: ‘Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God, because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the spirit of God. Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God.’…. 2 John 7: ‘For many deceivers are entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Antichrist”.

So Fitch declares that any church that does not preach the LITERAL Physical return of Christ is an Antichrist Church. He continues:

“Now as surely as the birth of Christ was personal and not spiritual, his life, his death, his ascension literal, so surely his coming must be. We have therefore only to inquire who is opposed to the personal reign of Christ on King Davids throne in order to ascertain who is Antichrist and who is in Babylon’... ‘When the papacy came into power they concluded to have Christ return not visibly, but spiritually, and thus the Pope entered into the stead of Christ and undertook to rule the world for Him”.

Not only the Catholics are ‘Babylon’, but all the Protestant sects deny his visible return too. As he says, they have their reasons for not desiring to visibly see Christ come:

“Each one of these sects is willing to rule the world for Christ but no one of them is willing to have Christ come to earth and reign for Himself …Inasmuch as these multiplied sects are opposed to the plain Bible truth of Christs visible reign on earth they are Babylon”

In fact ALL the churches, except Advent believers preach an invisible return. And so, are Babylon. In righteous indignation Fitch calls for the Advent believers to exit their churches and form their own sect:

“And now away forever with your miserable transcendental philosophy that would make the throne a spiritual throne, and the coming of Christ an invisible one, and hid reign spiritual. No, no. Jesus has been raised in David flesh immortalized. And he shall come in that flesh glorified ”.

Regrettably this speech is not much read these days by Adventists. And little wonder, for, a mere 3 YEARS after this speech, condemning “Babylon” for making Christs return invisible, The Adventist themselves spiritualized the fulfillment of their 1844 expectation by declaring that Christ entered the sanctuary in heaven rather than the earthly sanctuary. The 1844 prediction was declared fullfilled Invisibly, Unseen by human eyes.